I am likely to draw fire here, but I'm not known as a shrinking violet. I came back to my email this afternoon to another comment regarding my post on Fr. Francis Mary Stone (Does anyone know what he "discerned"? Does it matter, since leave the priesthood or not, he's likely to remain an "unperson?") and it irked me, because it hit upon a conversation I was having earlier in the day.
You don't like priests leaving the priesthood? Neither do I. You don't think a Latin Rite priest should be allowed to marry? Okay, we differ on that - although I don't actively advocate it, it just doesn't bother me if that tradition should change.
But I am utterly amazed - perhaps even disgusted - by the attitude of some women towards others, with the stance that priests should not interact often with females, lest they fall into the clutches of sirens and temptresses.
STOP INFANTILIZING PRIESTS! If they are mature enough to take a vow to the Church, then they are mature enough to handle women. If a woman - or a man - acts inappropriately, I will trust that my priest (and that's "priest with a small "p" - while he plays an important role in a Catholic's life, I'm not going to perpetuate a cult of personality) WILL TAKE THE APPROPRIATE STEPS and put an end to such nonsense. In one comment, I heard about certain priests only counseling women through the screen of a confesional - oh, get over it, Father, and grow up! Such an attitude either suggests she can't help but be a seductress, or you are either this immature celibate or you can't handle your own hormones.
Worse yet, some seem to suggest that if a priest strays, it must be the fault of the woman. Aw, bulls**t! A priest can abuse his position of counselor and prey upon a woman who may be going through a vulnerable time in her life just as equally well - indeed, I have met priests (one a formerly active priest who left the priesthood - thankfully - and for which I say, good riddance to bad rubbish) who possess egos the size of Texas and act as if they cannot be questioned or challenged because of their chosen vocation. St. John Vianney, ora pro nobis!
So here is my advice - if you think your priest is not adult enough to defend himself against the temptations that a priest faces, then chances are he's not man enough to be a priest. Frankly, I don't think the Catholic priesthood is the place for boys. I want my priest to have a backbone and a pair.
18 comments:
Amen! I'm with you. Granted reasonable care must be taken to respect boundaries - but I don't want any little boys who are afraid of NORMAL day to day interaction with women. it takes two to tango.
Mentally immature men should not be ordained. PERIOD.
As regards a married priesthood - I think we'd be exchanging one set of problems for another; and frankly, a harder set of problems to deal with.
It's quite one thing to ask a priest to live in modest circumstances - but if we parishioners expect father not to practice artificial birth control, then we ought to be prepared to pony up for his future 5-12 kids education and don't bitch about doing same. Any takers in the pews now? Ditto -- what if the priest's wife wants a divorce - there are two in a marriage -- and that could get really ugly. Can you ship a married priest around as easily as we ship around our priests in the diocese? It's one thing to ask a single man to do that - a married priest comes with a lot more baggage - the single men "Travel light." I AM grateful for those Anglican priests who have swum the Tiber - and would hope that those who have have strong marriages.
If the church ever did change on that, I would not lose my faith over it. But I would say "NO HUNTING licenses for those already ordained." Sorry. That would be too creepy!
As someone on another blog pointed out - sometimes a woman can be unaware that someone is "leaving" because of her. We don't know the details in this case, and I don't like the endless speculation. We should just pray that everything comes out all right.
And anyone whose own faith goes to hell in a handbag because some individual priest couldn't hack it anymore doesn't have much of a strong faith to begin with. Okay, you had those medieval popes and their mistresses - a scandal, yes -- but does that give me license to lose my faith over it? NO. You're supposed to do what is right and "run the race" regardless of those around you.
Right on - if this was indeed an "affair", it's less the grieving widow's fault than the priest's.
I have always maintained that ANY extramarital affair between one married and one non-married is more the fault of the married - it is he or she who has a vow to defend and protect.
Priests should be able to interact with women - they should have enough common sense to know when things have gone too far.
(Um, let's see - you get that feeling in the pit of your stomach, your heart leaps when you see the woman enter the room, you can't stop thinking about her...)
Um, yeah. I take umbrage with the notion that women tempt priests into straying. It sounds too much like an ideology of a certain other religion that blames women for everything and forces them to cover their bodies because they are "sinful".
Give me a break.
Saying a priest cannot be alone with or counsel a woman because of temptation is the same as saying a single man cannot be alone with a woman because he *might* be tempted.
With regards to married priests...I don't know how I feel about that. I echo some of gemoftheocean's sentiments. It'd be a very stressful and demanding life for Mrs. Priest and the children, not to mention the thought of dating a priest - which is rather bothersome.
Great post though, Digi.
So...Digi...why not tell us how you really feel?! LOL!
Sterling post!!! Thanks!
A priest being alone with a woman isn't a problem, necessarily.
A priest constantly being alone with the same woman IS a problem, and it's not because of what you think. In fact, it has little to do with sex at all.
It's simply because it is an occasion of scandal. Any rational human being who sees a priest walk out of the single gal's apartment every day (or God forbid the married woman whose husband is at work), same time, will begin to get ideas about priests, Catholics, and the Church in general.
It really might sound prudish, but it's just better to avoid these things.
(Again, I'm talking about Father Suave who goes to Miss Hotpants' house for dinner and drinks every night, NOT priests like my own, who manage to be social and affable without bringing scandal to anyone. Besides, when you have to pray the Liturgy of the Hours throughout the day, who has time to have an affair?)
I mean --- really.
Gem, little chance of the Church ever letting the ordained get hitched. If they ever let priests be married I'm certain they'll follow the Eastern tradition and insist they be married BEFORE they're ordaind deacons.
As a person who has relatives who are ordained (one never loses that distinction, just the license to practice) and then married (one following the proper procedure & 1 who didn't); I realize there are some in the priesthood who didn't know what they were in for, and some who were too immature (either by age or by temperment) to make that decision (and would have been too immature to decide to marry for the same reason). Some of the blame is of course theirs, but some must be placed on their superiors (whether bishops or religious superiors) for not recognising their immaturity. I don't think most 18 year olds, for example, have enough experience or maturiy to make a vocational decision, and St Pual had it right when he described a mature candidate in 1 Timothy 3. And my experience has been that the "later vocation" usually is a better priest (at least he knows what's expected of him).
Archangel's Advocate:
Heh. You KNOW who I mean when I speak of the former priest with my comment, good riddance to bad rubbish. At least his brother redeemed the family tradition.
no shrinking violet:
Well, any relationship--is just that a relationship--it takes two to tangle--quite literally! I'm kinda tired of people saying oh poor Father--being trapped by the devil woman--guess what, he let himself become a willing participant.
But, he already had a prior commitment--and his commitment was for celebacy. I'm not saying they were having sex--because I don't know--but if they were--that would be mortal sin--which causes death to the soul--and if he dies with mortal sin on his soul--he's going to Hell--so does she.
Are we human--yes--do we hate the sin and love the sinner and pray for both of them--big yes!
And I totally agree with stop infantilizing Priests. They can and do handle more women then most men even meet in a lifetime.
But, I strongly disagree with you that Priests should be allowed to marry. Of course this comes from my own very limited experiences with Priests--but the Pope agrees with me:)
In my personal relationship with my current Priest--Father Erik--I believe that their is a level of intimacy that if he were married I could and would not share. Telling him up close and personal feelings and ideas would not be an option if I were afraid he might go home and accidently share them with his wife--also, I would be reluctant to approach him--for fear of taking time away from his wife and kids.
The benefits to me, are that he has more of himself to give--and I am well aware that the costs to him are high--but in Heaven his rewards will be great.
Tara, as a lawyer I find your comments interesting. I am required to maintain a confidential relationship with a client. In some aspects of law, that can indeed mean a matter of life and death. And I can assure you, some very, very personal information is revealed to me in my office.
Yet, I am married, and by your logic, my client would be better served finding a lawyer who is not, lest some information "accidentally" be shared with my husband. By that same reasoning, if I am in need of psychological counseling, then I best not chose a married doctor, lest the same thing happen there. And that also, I suppose, rules out permanent deacons, since they may too may slip some information to their wives. As someone who takes the duties imposed upon her by civil law, how much more I would trust someone who has such a duty of confidentiality imposed upon him by canonical law! Thus, if a converted Anglican priest or a Eastern Rite priest were present, I would feel comfortable with him in the confessional, regardless of the Missus.
You may strongly disagree, and really the Church - not the Pope - currently "agrees" with you in that the tradition of the Latin Rite calls for celibate priests. I know Archangel's Advocate (my brother-in-law, actually) says that the church will never allow an ordained priest to marry, but could allow a deacon to marry and then receive ordination - as is already done in the Church - but the fact remains that the Church will follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, whatever that may be.
And if she were to allow priests to marry, my own comfort level is not compromised. I don't worry about him "spilling the beans" to his wife (or anyone else, such as my spouse), and I don't worry about taking time away from his wife and kids (just as now my requirements may take him away from both real and spiritual family).
I would issue this question as a gentle challenge - you state that you believe a plus in celibacy is because Fr. Erik "has more of himself to give". Presumably more to give to you and others in the parish - but would it be difficult if he gave more to one special person, one with whom he would share his own intimacies?
Oh, good arguments. Sheesh, I guess as a Lawyer--you would make good arguments.
As a nurse, and with all the HIPPA laws--my every working day is confidential--and yes I'm married. But, the major difference is that I don't live daily with my patients, nor as a lawyer do you with your clients.
I see my Priest daily at Mass. And I also see my daily Mass friends. But if I require emotional support--he feels so safe--I feel--like a Father--he is truly concerned with me as one of his parish family--first.
My married friends, on the other hand, while they truly care, it's on an entirely different level. They are concerned with their spouses and their extended personal families-first.
I still think I get more attention from a celibate Priest--so selfish me--I like it!
Oh, I forgot:
"but would it be difficult if he gave more to one special person, one with whom he would share his own intimacies?"
Yes, because I'm selfish--I don't like sharing--LOL
But seriously, Priests do have close intimate friends and other Priests with whom they share their "intimacies." Intimacy does not require sexual intercourse.
digi:
I was over at Abbey Roads 2 blog and he had a post about Celibacy in the Priesthood.
Terry quoted Fr. Ray Blake--"For me as a priest, unlike most of mankind it is cross, a brokenness, an emptiness, a lack of fulfillment that is freely chosen, and actually, when I examine it, joyfully chosen, even if that joy doesn’t always shine forth in my life. Choosing the cross, brokenness, emptiness and even the lack of fulfillment makes no sense, except in solidarity with Christ. For the rest of mankind it comes from an unfortunate providence, for a Catholic priest, when you scrape away all the other influences, ultimately it comes from a deliberate choice, for the Kingdom of God."
So I was talking with my hubby Jim and telling him how beautiful it was that Father Blake made the deliberate choice for celibacy in an attempt to become closer to God--and that you said, "but would it be difficult if he gave more to one special person, one with whom he would share his own intimacies?"
Jim said--well, Tara, isn't that the point of celibacy to not grow more intimate with a wife--but with God?
Tara: I agree that intimacy does not necessarily equate to sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is such a mindset that gets people into trouble anyway.
That is the point of celibacy in the priesthood (and the religious life), to grow more intimate with God. But celibacy is not the only road, and I would doubt you - or even Fr. Erik - would say a man is somehow "less" a priest if he were an Anglican minister who converted to Catholicism or a Catholic priest of one of the Eastern Rites who was married.
If the Church were to allow married priests in the Latin Rite - and the disagreement seems to be whether a man must be married before ordination or whether an ordained priest can marry - I could see a man choosing to remain celibate for the reason of increased intimacy with God. But if you hold to the proposition that intimacy has deeper meaning than something sexual, then there is nothing to suggest that the presence of sex in a man's life denies him that intimacy. This is my brother-in-law's point about the mature candidate of 1 Timothy 3 - I could see the Church placing some limits on marriage for its priests, including a mandate of a certain number of years of service in the priesthood and the permission of the Bishop, as well as a sort of "screening process" for the intended wife, just as a deacon's wife undergoes scrutiny.
I suppose my question originally, though, was more personal - I am intrigued by the amount of deference you give to your priest, and I pass no judgment on whether it is rightfully earned, although what I have seen of Fr. Erik's blog and his demeanor on "Journey Home" leads me to see him as being somewhat charismatic. Now, I'm quite friendly with my priest and we have had this conversation about this topic, and I've told him, IF the Church were to allow it and IF he were to choose that course, I'd dance at his wedding (that's a very Noo Yawk term). My "gentle challenge", as it were, was whether you could accept that same choice or whether it would be uncomfortable knowing there was another woman who held a closer position to the throne, so to speak.
At coffee after Mass today, I talked with Father about your blog post--"what do you say Father?" I asked. He said, "Tara, I have met many Priests and from what I've seen it's a blessing to the world that they don't marry."
He also said, for those who want to remain celibate it would be a nightmare to fight off all the women who would stand in line wanting to be "the one."
And your correct, I do regard him in high esteem. My church friends keep reminding me, "he doesn't walk on water Tara!" They are afraid I have given him superhuman hero status and are afraid I will be disappointed and hurt when I learn he is not perfect.
I supose it comes from my abusive life growing-up living around Narcisstic, cruel, abusive people. My opinion is that most people lie, are dishonest, don't care about anyone but themselves--and will hurt you rather than be even slightly inconvinenced.
Growing up also, around Mormons--they have a "mask" they basically lie--tell you what you want to hear--very insincere.
The first Priest that I ever even talked with was Father Hope--and yes I thought he walked on water also. I have never in my entire life men who were so unselfish and wanted to help other people--genuine kindness, faithfulness, and goodness.
The second Priest was all about himself--he liked the attention, it's all about me kinda guy. He was disrespectful to old people, handicapped and children. This was shortly after my conversion and I was severly sad about his non-comformity to my Holy Mother Church--I left the church for almost two months--and did not intend to return.
Then Father Erik came to our Parish--at first I was afraid of him--and I truly believed he hated me. But with time, I realized his intentions--he truly wants to help others and is concerned for the salvation of their souls. You should see how he treats children--they love him. Once I brought a small child about two--Isabella--over to him--she wanted her stuffed pig blessed--he was so kind and gentle with her, and blessed her little pig--ahh, my heart melted.
He is kind to old people--he loves them--he cares about the handicapped--unlike his predecessors he made religious education available to the retarded--if the parents wanted to bring them--he would find a teacher for them.
I think he's a saint--maybe these type of people are common place to you--but to me--who have been abused all my life and taken advantage of, he is a breath of fresh air.
Hmmm, I would have to disagree with Fr. Erik. Maybe initially there would be a bevy of women lining up to be "the one," but I think once the word is out on how committed a "Mrs. Priest" must be - and how hard the life is - it would die down. And let's face it, the type of woman who is attracted to a "priest" - versus the person behind the collar, just as there are groupies for firemen, musicians, bikers, doctors, etc. - is going to go after Father, regardless of his commitment ot celibacy or not. Psychologists have that same problem, likely because they are in the role of counseling needy people.
I'm sure Fr. Erik is a fine priest. He sounds like it - good for him. He's acting as a priest should, although I have to raise an eyebrow at his reference to Erik Cartman on his blog, given a certain episode of South Park that was particularly profane - easy now, not condemning him, just raising the brow. But for now, he's a saint with a little "s", just like the rest of us, hopefully aspiring to become a saint with a big "s". So, will you ever stop capitalizing "Priest" when used as a noun? LOL!
And hey - Fr. Michael blessed my son's talking Jesus action figure. And Patrick wants us all to know, that it was NOT a doll, but an ACTION FIGURE. That's very important to a 7-year-old. (BTW, Tara, continue to remain Catholic and you will find we bless nearly every damn thing in sight! Stuffed pigs, live pigs, weiner dogs, new Cadillacs, baseballs, pens used to take bar examinations . . . )
My Catholic psychologist highly encourages my relationship with Father--he said the mutual admiration could bring forth "good fruit." He thought it was good for me to be able to trust someone other than my husband who was a man, and in a healthy non-sexual friend relationship.
But do you really want me to stop capitalizing Priest? Those hands--have been given the power to bring me the true body and blood of Jesus everyday--how awesome! How can I just write priest? But for you digi, on your site--I'll try.
Tara: those hands belong to a priest who acts in the place of the Priest.
xI am happy for Father Francis. . .I myself am a married priest, happily married to a WOMAN for 35 years. She was a widow with five children when we married, and all worked out. . .the tragedy is that the man-made law of mandatory celibacy causes all kinds of problems. . .thousands of great priest have married in the last 40 years, and most would still be serving the People of God as a priest, if celibacy were optional. . .I truly hope Father Francis will find the happiness I have found. . .where o where can we write to him?
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